tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22496677.post9011446984245392539..comments2024-03-23T09:47:39.612+00:00Comments on alan sloman's big walk: Loch a' choire ghlais: Pumped storage proposalAlan Slomanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17966543499033330765noreply@blogger.comBlogger53125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22496677.post-74141704669500623922012-03-01T16:25:41.104+00:002012-03-01T16:25:41.104+00:00The point I was making about the 9 million tons of...The point I was making about the 9 million tons of rock excavated for your caverns was that it comes out of the tunnel entrances so that equates to 600,000 normal truck movements (there & back, remember) <br />That rock will have to be transported a hell of a long way to be dumped / sold, whatever and that alone would put paid to the scheme. I can't see the locals accepting those sorts of traffic loads. Those huge lorries of yours are fine for on-site haulage only.<br /><br />Listen Peter: I think It's grand that you are clearly thinking of the bigger picture and I admire your reasoning for maximising the available sites.<br /><br />Why not write to SSE and let them know your thoughts? When you get a reply, pop back here and let us know - I am sure we would all love to hear what they say.<br /><br />All the best<br />AlanAlan Slomanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17966543499033330765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22496677.post-27327181916972049272012-03-01T13:42:38.273+00:002012-03-01T13:42:38.273+00:00Well hopefully you won't think so, Alan, after...Well hopefully you won't think so, Alan, after the job is done and any remaining unused rock has been landscaped over.<br /><br />Hopefully, you'll think, <i>"this is beautiful, so natural looking, even Peter's 317 metre high dam"!</i><br /><br />The big trucks are a bit less than 10 metres wide but I would imagine they'd get as far as Fort William by sea.<br /><br />New roads around the construction site will have to be made anyway, so they'd be designed to be wide enough.<br /><br />Whether those big lorries would need new roads or roads widened, or alternative routes such as across fields, all the way from Fort William to Coire Glas I don't know. How hard can it be?<br /><br />The big truck company, Liebherr, must deal with that issue every day. They'll know how to get their big trucks delivered to sites.<br /><br />Oh I already accounted for the generator caverns excavated rock.<br /><br />Separate caverns for each generator, I think. Many smaller caverns are easier to shore up against the risk of cave-ins than one huge cavern.<br /><br />My cavern space was accounted for when I wrote <i>"So say 20 times more for my scheme's underground works makes 9 million cubic metres."</i><br /><br />The SSE say <i>"a surplus of approximately 450,000 cubic metres of excavated rock"</i> for their underground works which is 0.45 million cubic metres.<br /><br />I've estimated that my underground works, caverns, tunnels etc. would be 20 times that or 20 x 0.45 = 9 million cubic metres.<br /><br />So that 9 is part of the 138 + 9 = 147 million cubic metres in total.<br /><br />Well Alan. the SSE scheme is very good but I do feel it will be a missed great opportunity to maximise the potential of the Coire Glas site.<br /><br />The SSE's 30 GigaWatt-hours of energy stored won't be enough as we approach 100% of all our electricity generated by renewable sources of energy.<br /><br />To meet the targets, to keep the lights on when the wind isn't blowing much, the SSE will need to acquire many more sites to set up many smaller pumped-storage hydro schemes.<br /><br />They're aren't that many really good sites available. We should make the best use of the few really good sites.<br /><br />My 20 times more than SSE's at upwards of 600 Giga-Watt hours could keep the lights on in Scotland for 100 hours easy.<br /><br />I am glad the SSE engineers did work out their own scheme - it's an inspiration - but being so inspired by the SSE's proposal the site, I do believe that my vision of a much bigger hydro scheme for Coire Glas is the way to go.Peter Dowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06734999584588033898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22496677.post-77527595438918723602012-03-01T09:26:36.045+00:002012-03-01T09:26:36.045+00:00"...if it's only a few miles to the dump...."...if it's only a few miles to the dump..." So - you want to dump this rock spoil on the hillside? I don't think so!<br /><br />Also: Think how you would get these huge lorries to the site. By road? Not really practical. The rock from your massively enlarged generator cavern; how would you dispose of that?<br /><br />I would let SSE's engineers work out their own scheme Peter!Alan Slomanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17966543499033330765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22496677.post-29810222727015477992012-03-01T02:41:06.038+00:002012-03-01T02:41:06.038+00:00Thanks for your critical eye Alan. I need someone ...Thanks for your critical eye Alan. I need someone like you to keep me sharp.<br /><br />A 400 million tonne rock-moving job would need to use some of biggest trucks in the world I think.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.quarryed.co.uk/digthisbiggesttruck.html" rel="nofollow"><i>The World's Biggest Truck</i></a><br /><br />One of the world's biggest trucks can be found in the huge coal mines in Wyoming and Australia, copper mines in Chile, in iron extraction in South Africa and in gold mines in Nevada.<br /><br />So how big is big?<br /><br />This monster mining truck weighs in at 203 tonnes (when empty), and measures 24 foot 3 inches (7.4 metres) tall over the canopy, 47 feet 6 inches (14.5 metres) long with a wheelbase of 21 foot 6 inches (6.6 metres).<br /> <br />It can carry loads of 365 tonnes, so when loaded that's an overall weight of 568 tonnes!<br /> <br />AC power!<br /><br />This is also no ordinary truck. Instead of one huge engine powering the wheels, there is a 3650-horsepower (2723-kilowatt) diesel engine generating power for two electric motors in the rear axles, making this the biggest AC drive truck in the world!"<br /><br />That's got the job down to 1.1 million loads at 365 tonnes a load.<br /><br />Now if it's only a few miles to the dump that means a lorry might be able to do as many as 100 round trips a day, assuming 24-hour-7-days-a-week operation, which is 100 loads at 365 tonnes per load or 36,500 tonnes a day.<br /><br />In 100 days, one lorry could have shifted 10,000 loads or 3,650,000 tonnes.<br /><br />In 100 days, 10 lorries could have shifted 100,000 loads or 36,500,000 tonnes.<br /><br />In 100 days, 100 lorries could have shifted 1,000,000 loads or 365,000,000 tonnes<br /><br />So one could either move the 400 million tonnes of excavated rock with 100 lorries in 110 days. Or hire 110 lorries and do it in 100 days.<br /><br />Or if that is too optimistic and it takes 2 or 3 times as many lorries or 2 or 3 times as long, that's OK Alan.Peter Dowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06734999584588033898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22496677.post-12736286995749828812012-02-29T21:36:11.243+00:002012-02-29T21:36:11.243+00:00Peter. That did make me giggle! I don't think ...Peter. That did make me giggle! I don't think there are enough trucks in the world to shift all that rock! That's 13.5 million truck loads @ 30 tons per truck... = 27 million truck journeys...<br /><br />I'd concentrate on liberating Scotland, if I were you!<br />:-)Alan Slomanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17966543499033330765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22496677.post-6505875806791724322012-02-29T21:15:28.999+00:002012-02-29T21:15:28.999+00:00Thank you for your interest in my much bigger hydr...Thank you for your interest in my much bigger hydro dam scheme for Coire Glas Alan.<br /><br />I hadn't worked this out but since you asked, I have just now estimated how much rock will need excavating from the upper reservoir bed - 138 million cubic metres to leave the elliptical bed with vertical walls.<br /><br />The underground works excavates rock as well and that too will be more for my bigger scheme. After all, with 20 times more stored energy it makes sense to install more generators which will need more excavating underground.<br /><br />The SSE say for their scheme<br /><br /><i>"Coire Glas Pumped Storage Scheme<br />Non-Technical Summary. 3.1.4<br /><br />Rock Disposal - Excavated rock from the underground works would be reused in the<br />localised area of construction works wherever feasible. However, it is estimated that<br />there would be a surplus of approximately 450,000 cubic metres of excavated rock<br />which would require disposal. The majority of rock from the excavated tunnels and<br />cavern chamber would be removed via the tunnel portals near the shore at Loch<br />Lochy."</i><br /><br />So say 20 times more for my scheme's underground works makes 9 million cubic metres.<br /><br />So that's 138 + 9 = 147 million cubic metres total of excavated rock.<br /><br />Now my bigger dam may have a volume of around 72 million cubic metres which will need about 50 million cubic metres of aggregate to make the concrete for it.<br /><br />The needed aggregate could be produced by crushing some of the excavated rock, which would still leave 147 - 50 = 97 million cubic metres of loose rock left over after construction of the dam.<br /><br />Well I suppose there is a market for loose rock to make aggregate or for other construction purposes in which case it'll go wherever and whenever it is needed?<br /><br />If it turns out that there's no market for so much loose rock, I presume it could be landscaped in somewhere in the vicinity and left looking nice I trust.<br /><br />As for such a huge dam being technically feasible?<br /><br />Oh aye nae bother Alan. There look to be <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_dams_in_the_world" rel="nofollow">6 dams of greater volume than my 72 million cubic metres already in the world</a>.<br /><br />Whilst my dam might now look like it might be ever so slightly the tallest man-made dam in the world - <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tallest_dams_in_the_world" rel="nofollow">ever so slightly the tallest in the world</a> (unless someone else builds bigger first), actually making a large simple dam is not too difficult technically speaking.<br /><br />Nature makes and breaks natural dams and in fact <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usoi_Dam" rel="nofollow">the tallest dam in the world at 567m is a natural dam</a>.<br /><br />The cost for the smaller SSE scheme in total they estimate at £800 million and since my dam will be 27 times more massive than SSE's and the energy capacity is 20 times more than SSE's I would say the cost of mine will be around about £20 billion or so.<br /><br />I am sure that the SSE don't think my bigger scheme would be economic for them right now.<br /><br />But that's OK because I don't propose that the SSE fund my bigger hydro dam scheme out of their own funds.<br /><br />Instead, I propose that my bigger scheme be funded out of government funds as a major infrastructure project, like a bridge or motorway is funded, even like the Concorde project was funded!<br /><br />The Bank of England has been giving out more than £300 billion recently in so called "quantitative easing" cash to the banks so I suggest that some of that government money gets invested in something worthwhile like my hydro dam project rather than keeping the bankers well lubricated with cash.<br /><br />So yes it will be a good sound economic investment for the country, electricity suppliers and customers as well for the longer term.Peter Dowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06734999584588033898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22496677.post-71448135232439225042012-02-28T18:03:00.949+00:002012-02-28T18:03:00.949+00:00Hello Peter
That's certainly an interesting i...Hello Peter<br /><br />That's certainly an interesting idea. Have you worked out how much and where all the rock you envisage excavating from the upper reservoir site will go? The size of the dam you propose is absolutely huge - are you sure this is technically possible and at what cost can it be achieved? The capital cost of building your scheme may well prove to make the scheme uneconomic.<br /><br />I am sure SSE will want to be able to sell as much power as possible from each of their pumped storage schemes, and so I am pretty certain that they will have done cost benefit analyses on any number of iterations of dam size and will have arrived at this scheme as the most economically viable.<br /><br />I have taken a look at your "Scottish Economy" site and whilst we don't share the same views I wish you well.Alan Slomanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17966543499033330765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22496677.post-77238462395089535422012-02-28T18:01:41.222+00:002012-02-28T18:01:41.222+00:00Hi Bernie
Please excuse my dreadfully late approva...Hi Bernie<br />Please excuse my dreadfully late approval of your comment - It's my email host - Google - who believed your email was spam for whatever reason! This has happened occasionally in the past, with ghastly consequences, and I have no idea how to sort it out. However!...<br />Thanks for commenting. I think that's great little scheme you have pointed to. Every little bit helps and it gives the "hard-pressed" sheep farmer a bit of help too.Alan Slomanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17966543499033330765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22496677.post-6151769345857355732012-02-27T21:59:38.974+00:002012-02-27T21:59:38.974+00:00Hi again, Peter.
The 3D view is available from mo...Hi again, Peter. <br />The 3D view is available from most Ordnance Survey mapping programmes - these are sold under license by firms such as Anquet and Memory Map.Alan Slomanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17966543499033330765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22496677.post-89893092276445071652012-02-27T21:57:08.096+00:002012-02-27T21:57:08.096+00:00Hello Peter
That's certainly an interesting i...Hello Peter<br /><br />That's certainly an interesting idea. Have you worked out how much and where all the rock you envisage excavating from the upper reservoir site will go? The size of the dam you propose is absolutely huge - are you sure this is technically possible and at what cost can it be achieved? The capital cost of building your scheme may well prove to make the scheme uneconomic.<br /><br />I am sure SSE will want to be able to sell as much power as possible from each of their pumped storage schemes, and so I am pretty certain that they will have done cost benefit analyses on any number of iterations of dam size and will have arrived at this scheme as the most economically viable.<br /><br />I have taken a look at your "Scottish Economy" site and whilst we don't share the same views I wish you well.Alan Slomanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17966543499033330765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22496677.post-42118099353245299892012-02-27T19:49:35.119+00:002012-02-27T19:49:35.119+00:00And Alan, please do tell where you got your 3D vie...And Alan, please do tell where you got your 3D view of what looks like an Ordinance Survey map of Cruachan.<br /><br />I have used <a href="http://tinyurl.com/coireglas" rel="nofollow">Google Earth to get 3D satellite views of Coire Glas</a> and that is amazing and delightful to use but I've not found a 3D map option like the image you posted of Cruachan. Nice. I have got to get me one of these.Peter Dowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06734999584588033898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22496677.post-48409064014047237152012-02-27T18:57:06.189+00:002012-02-27T18:57:06.189+00:00My alternative vision for a hydro dam scheme at Co...My alternative vision for a hydro dam scheme at Coire Glas offers about 20 times more energy stored than the SSE plan. Yup, that's around about 600 GigaWatt-hours.<br /><br />Then again, my dam is a lot bigger (and more expensive to build)!<br /><br />See my plan published on my blog or forum.<br /><br /><a href="http://peterdow.blogspot.com/2012/02/my-vision-for-larger-hydro-dam-at-coire.html" rel="nofollow">Peter Dow's Blog: My vision for a LARGER hydro dam at Coire Glas, Scotland than SSE's</a><br /><br /><a href="http://scot.cyberhost.me/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2315#2315" rel="nofollow">For Freedom Forums, Scottish Economy Topic, My vision for a LARGER hydro dam at Coire Glas, Scotland than SSE's</a>Peter Dowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06734999584588033898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22496677.post-81350546466526184852012-02-27T18:47:28.458+00:002012-02-27T18:47:28.458+00:00Well done Alan and thank you.
I've really bee...Well done Alan and thank you.<br /><br />I've really been inspired by the SSE proposal for a pumped-storage scheme for Coire Glas to conceive and to publish a plan for bigger and better hydro dam scheme at Choir Glas.<br /><br />See my vision on my blog or my forum.<br /><br /><a href="http://peterdow.blogspot.com/2012/02/my-vision-for-larger-hydro-dam-at-coire.html" rel="nofollow">Peter Dow's Blog: My vision for a LARGER hydro dam at Coire Glas, Scotland than SSE's</a>.<br /><br />This can also be <a href="http://scot.cyberhost.me/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2315#2315" rel="nofollow">read in the "Scottish Economy" topic of the For Freedom Forums</a>.Peter Dowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06734999584588033898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22496677.post-90454900835066063462012-02-22T20:35:53.483+00:002012-02-22T20:35:53.483+00:00Absolutely John.
Top marks!
If we saw our politic...Absolutely John.<br />Top marks!<br /><br />If we saw our politicians as they really look, would they resemble Ostriches?<br />They certainly seem quite oblivious to reality and are running a blinkered course to meet deadlines set by Europe.<br /><br />Personnaly, I have no real problem with the above as long as they do it efficiently.<br />Sadly, theirin lies the fundamental problem.<br />As a nation we have an extraordinary ability to overrun, overspend and underplan.Andrew Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14744521212967848460noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22496677.post-81223696859716018142012-02-22T19:27:03.429+00:002012-02-22T19:27:03.429+00:00Response to Scottish renewables attack on the Ramb...Response to Scottish renewables attack on the Ramblers and JMT<br />You talk as though the only alternatives are wind and pumped storage. I don't remember anything from JMT or Ramblers against tidal and wave, although I think we need to understand what we are doing. The fishing grounds in Kent have turned to a desert and jobs are on the line. Have the marine biologists got their facts right or have they sold thir souls to the Green Giant? There are alternatives including Clean Coal. Have a look at this video from Craig, Colorado: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=mAglE5gfmYQ. There is still 500 yrs of coal beneath out feet. There is nuclear which has moved on a long way since Chernobyl or Fukushima were built. See the new CANDU reactor built in China that can run on Thorium. and there is gas frakking which even the geological research people seem fairly comfortable about. On top of that there are new technolgies such as Osmotic Generation which is forecast to generate 1600-1700TWhr of electrical production and is already operating in Toffe, Nr. Oslo, Norway. There is also Plasma Waste which has the potential to "mine" all our land fill sites, produces no CO2 and has a waste prodect similar to inert glass whic can be used in the building industry. All these technologies have very small footprints and can be built close to use obviating the billion of pounds predicted to be necessary to connect the new "renewable" supplies to the user base. On that basis what we want is some grown up thinking. I have spoken to various people that worked for such as Scottish Power and the National Grid at the highest levels and they hang their heads in horror at this Race for Wind driven by artificial political deadlines. My final point is the gratuitous use of the term Nimby. Edmund Burke made a comment that is very apt. “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.” When we sensibly address our need for a sustainable energy policy; note I do not use the word renewable; it may very well be that pumped storage has a greater place in the portfolio than it currently does but the caveat is that pumped storage needs cheap off-peak electricty to re-cycle the system. Subsidised wind, off-shore or on-shore will never provide that. We are sleep walking into the most expensive electricity supply situation that it is possible to envisage and that will have a disastrous effect on UK industry and commerce. The CO2 that the UK may be able to save in the short term is an irrelevance of the magnitude of an ant on an elephants back in comparsion to the output of the new tiger economies of the east. Common sense, the most un-common sense it would seem in the corridors of power, could direct us to an economical mixed energy mix that could make us leaders in the world. It is of no coincidence that most high tech solutions to wind and water rely not on UK manufacture, as it did in the 50 and 60's when Hydro first made it's mark but on predominately German turbines, generators and switch gear. Wind Turbines come from an established manufacturing base in Europe. Little benefit is accrued to UK industry. A few crumbs only to the muck movers and steel bashers for construction of bases both on-shore and off. It is of interest that Dinorwig, the largest UK pumped storage system in terms of capacity relies on six UK made GEC turbines.John Grahamhttp://windfarmaction.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22496677.post-35925836628134106632012-02-21T12:02:33.434+00:002012-02-21T12:02:33.434+00:00Hi Steve
You were looking at Beinn Ghlas windfarm....Hi Steve<br />You were looking at Beinn Ghlas windfarm. This is a real tiddler compared to what they are building these days. It was completed in 1999 and the guest of honour who opened the scheme was none other than Kevin Dunion, Director of Friends of the Earth, Scotland.<br /><br />The average turbine generates 0.6MW. Modern turbines are huge in comparison, generating between 2.5 & 3.0GW in Scotland (onshore).<br /><br />You can read more about it <a href="http://www.rwe.com/web/cms/en/280998/rwe-innogy/sites/wind-onshore/united-kingdom/in-operation/summary/" rel="nofollow">HERE</a>Alan Slomanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17966543499033330765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22496677.post-88919521037088987612012-02-21T08:17:57.964+00:002012-02-21T08:17:57.964+00:00I agree with the general opinion in the comments. ...I agree with the general opinion in the comments. I would prefer this to a wind farm. On Saturday I was on a bus to Taynuilt and I could instantly tell which was Cruchan because of the dam, as the bus turned slightly my eyes were diverted to a wind farm and a head shake and muttering under my breath continued for a while at its sight.<br /><br />I'm not sure which the wind farm was, but I could still see it as I headed out of Taynuilt towards Glen Etive, positioned on top of a hill (small one in this case) it stood out from miles around, unlike the proposed hydro scheme (I believe).<br /><br />Interestingly the day before I had been involved in a long interesting discussion on hydro schemes with three other outdoors people in Tiso at Glasgow. This scheme and several others were mentioned and the general consensus was they would prefer these to wind farms. Small turbines in existing pipes was something else discussed.<br /><br />I'm with nuclear too.Steven Hornerhttp://www.stevenhorner.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22496677.post-36348800611318068592012-02-20T21:12:42.686+00:002012-02-20T21:12:42.686+00:00Succinctly put.
Yes.Succinctly put.<br />Yes.Alan Slomanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17966543499033330765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22496677.post-87617655633169923382012-02-20T21:12:08.757+00:002012-02-20T21:12:08.757+00:00Visit Scotland's controlling minister is John ...Visit Scotland's controlling minister is John Swinney - the minister for Energy. Quelle Surprise, then!Alan Slomanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17966543499033330765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22496677.post-2296246430073625562012-02-20T21:10:21.975+00:002012-02-20T21:10:21.975+00:00It's a shame the politicians don't read up...It's a shame the politicians don't read up on power generation. They make their decisions based on political considerations rather than engineering facts.<br /><br />That's not to mention the sheer beauty of the places they destroy by doing so.Alan Slomanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17966543499033330765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22496677.post-85225067769258616382012-02-20T20:24:28.199+00:002012-02-20T20:24:28.199+00:00I also am in favour of nuclear power.
The frogs ...I also am in favour of nuclear power. <br /><br />The frogs have successfully been using this for years.<br /><br />The odd hiccup like tsunamis should not consign useful technology to history.<br /><br />Radioactive waste can be managed until decontamination methods are improved.<br /><br />Science and engineers, given the chance can solve most problems. <br /><br />I am also in favour of other cost effective renewable technology, wind farms not being one of them.Sandynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22496677.post-78625330552212365012012-02-20T19:39:16.904+00:002012-02-20T19:39:16.904+00:00Hello Alan
Absolutely right. Unfortunately Salmon...Hello Alan<br /><br />Absolutely right. Unfortunately Salmond doesn't even see the nettle.afootinthehillshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06670636358354420373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22496677.post-84244700020433125022012-02-20T19:22:26.144+00:002012-02-20T19:22:26.144+00:00Wot Humph saidWot Humph saidElpushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16736460104596022993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22496677.post-32729861200400511972012-02-20T19:19:19.643+00:002012-02-20T19:19:19.643+00:00Interesting comments about the Turlough Hill pumpe...Interesting comments about the Turlough Hill pumped hydro. I see Bord Failte, the Irish Tourist Board, objected to the pylons and managed to get them undergrounded at the cost of £600,000. How very different from Visit Scotland that has never objected to any wind farms or wirescape and even brushes them out of the tourist photos. The Chairman of Ramblers of Scotland told me that he asked Visit Scotland if they had any photos with WTs in and they admitted that they had not. Search wind farms on the Visit Scotland site and you get one very brief reference to Whitelees Visitor CentreJohn Grahamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22496677.post-73587764886293282572012-02-20T19:08:49.707+00:002012-02-20T19:08:49.707+00:00Although not related to Scotland the following see...Although not related to Scotland the following seen today<br />http://tohatchacrow.blogspot.com/ about a proposal for Shropshire areaBob Andrewshttp://randombackpacking.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.com